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I just got back from seeing 9 with ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
lynxgriffin.
I'll be the first to admit I called parts of the plot - tough not to in places - and turned off the story part of my brain. The utterly weird part about that was, once I did, I went straight into IB mode and started analyzing everything.
HOLY SHIT THIS MOVIE. I. SYMBOLISM. WHAT.
I have to do symbolism first or I'll forget everything. Seriously.
1's staff versus 9's staff, after they return from having awakened the OH SHIT PLOT DEVICE. 1's staff is curved at the top, remniscent of the shepherd's crook (keep in mind that 1 gives off religious cult leader vibes strong enough to choke a horse, complete with funny hat and cape), with a bell hanging from the end. 9's staff is a functional lightbulb, the cultural symbol of a new idea, that (as the name suggests) gives off light, classical symbol of illumination, enlightenment, knowledge, etc. Clash of old ideas versus new. Also, 1 loses his staff and gives up his cape ("I can't!") when he is forced to join the group and flee from the black bird (*dramatic music here*), at which point the church also burns. He also spends the first part of the movie referring to the cat robot as "the beast."
The beast = have we read Revelations lately, black cat = ill omen, black bird = generally an ill omen (specifics?), giving up the symbols of religious leadership, heading to the library (new ideas) when the church (old ideas) burns. And have we noticed that 1 and 7 are the only ones who dress (beyond carrying weapons) and that both eventually lose their various clothing articles?
6. My goodness 6. Virtually unable to express himself through words. Drawing the same symbol over and over again. Cryptic phrases - "go back to the source!" Black and white vertical stripes remniscent of the classic prisoner's uniform with a link of a chain and a key around his neck. Said to represent Tim Burton, but I think you can go so much deeper than that (and I seriously thought that damn key was going to be a plot point, especially when the "music" box with the message to 9 had a keyhole).
7 as the warrior type. Masks worn by warriors. The bird skull, bill too long to really be a predator, meant to be predatory anyway? Feathers at the base - remniscent in my mind to Native American headdress, stereotypes of base cultural warriors. Also about the only character in the movie who kicks ass.
Archetypal numbers. 1 as the beginning, as singularity. 2 as duality, a split from the single. 3 is completion (the conjunction of 1 and 2). 4 is earth (4 directions, solidity of the cube). 5 as man (generally two arms, two legs, head). 6 is love, beauty, romance, art, balance (this one didn't quite fit in the movie, unless you want to take "art" and run with it). 7 is a number of completion (addition of 3 and 4). 8 is infinity (another that didn't really fit). 9 is also completion - three times three - the end of one cycle and the beginning of another. In the end, only the numbers of completion (3, 7, 9) and the number of Earth (4) still stand. The end of the era of the machines comes to an end, and Earth is reborn. 3 and 4 are twins - add them together to get 7, a number of completion. Jeez this movie ties up its knots.
Divisions of the soul nine times (cycles, whee):
1. Leadership, the old man, possibly fear?
2. The innovator, the wise one
3 & 4. Knowledge and memory, two factors that work off one another
5. The everyman, loyalty
6. That little part that most people can't understand, deeper than deep
7. The female and the warrior (the fact that both of these aspects were conjoined after coming from a male scientist...the other half that was never expressed, perhaps)
8. The bruiser, the slow wit, the simple one
9. Curiousity, new ideas
Every time they showed a statue or a painting or that book (what was the name on the book talking about the soul I can't remember aaaaaaaa) I wanted to pause it and either screencap or take notes. I have never wanted to sit down and absolutely rip a movie apart the way I did this movie. I want a copy so I can sit down and analyze it for real.
About the only symbolism I didn't appreciate was placing the coin over 2's eyes before floating him down the river. I don't need to get smacked with the symbolism stick, thank you.
*puff puff pant*
And for those of you who want an actual review:
I had fun. I really did have a lot of fun during this movie. There were points in the story where I felt I'd missed some crucial dialogue or character development that never actually happened (see: 9 growing a personality, why do we care about 2, how did they make it to the tunnel that fast), but once the story got going it worked alright. It was definitely on the stereotypical side, and I completely called a good deal of the plot (to the point where I've decided "my foreshadowing sense is tingling" needs to be an icon of some sort), but I did enjoy it. Definitely worth seeing.
...I don't have a lot to say about story because, like I said, story brain shut off and analysis brain kicked right in. I will say I think the robot was the least thought out part of this movie and the random SOUL MAGIC OMG twist just made me go buh? because up until then I'd definitely bought the steampunk/stitchpunk aspect of things, and random soul whatever just made me stop and stare for a bit. Definitely jarring.
And that snake robot? Nightmares forever.
...I'm sure I'll write more about my life at some point, as soon as I can back my brain out of analysis mode and into normal living mode. Uh-huh. 8D
lynxgriffin.I'll be the first to admit I called parts of the plot - tough not to in places - and turned off the story part of my brain. The utterly weird part about that was, once I did, I went straight into IB mode and started analyzing everything.
HOLY SHIT THIS MOVIE. I. SYMBOLISM. WHAT.
I have to do symbolism first or I'll forget everything. Seriously.
1's staff versus 9's staff, after they return from having awakened the OH SHIT PLOT DEVICE. 1's staff is curved at the top, remniscent of the shepherd's crook (keep in mind that 1 gives off religious cult leader vibes strong enough to choke a horse, complete with funny hat and cape), with a bell hanging from the end. 9's staff is a functional lightbulb, the cultural symbol of a new idea, that (as the name suggests) gives off light, classical symbol of illumination, enlightenment, knowledge, etc. Clash of old ideas versus new. Also, 1 loses his staff and gives up his cape ("I can't!") when he is forced to join the group and flee from the black bird (*dramatic music here*), at which point the church also burns. He also spends the first part of the movie referring to the cat robot as "the beast."
The beast = have we read Revelations lately, black cat = ill omen, black bird = generally an ill omen (specifics?), giving up the symbols of religious leadership, heading to the library (new ideas) when the church (old ideas) burns. And have we noticed that 1 and 7 are the only ones who dress (beyond carrying weapons) and that both eventually lose their various clothing articles?
6. My goodness 6. Virtually unable to express himself through words. Drawing the same symbol over and over again. Cryptic phrases - "go back to the source!" Black and white vertical stripes remniscent of the classic prisoner's uniform with a link of a chain and a key around his neck. Said to represent Tim Burton, but I think you can go so much deeper than that (and I seriously thought that damn key was going to be a plot point, especially when the "music" box with the message to 9 had a keyhole).
7 as the warrior type. Masks worn by warriors. The bird skull, bill too long to really be a predator, meant to be predatory anyway? Feathers at the base - remniscent in my mind to Native American headdress, stereotypes of base cultural warriors. Also about the only character in the movie who kicks ass.
Archetypal numbers. 1 as the beginning, as singularity. 2 as duality, a split from the single. 3 is completion (the conjunction of 1 and 2). 4 is earth (4 directions, solidity of the cube). 5 as man (generally two arms, two legs, head). 6 is love, beauty, romance, art, balance (this one didn't quite fit in the movie, unless you want to take "art" and run with it). 7 is a number of completion (addition of 3 and 4). 8 is infinity (another that didn't really fit). 9 is also completion - three times three - the end of one cycle and the beginning of another. In the end, only the numbers of completion (3, 7, 9) and the number of Earth (4) still stand. The end of the era of the machines comes to an end, and Earth is reborn. 3 and 4 are twins - add them together to get 7, a number of completion. Jeez this movie ties up its knots.
Divisions of the soul nine times (cycles, whee):
1. Leadership, the old man, possibly fear?
2. The innovator, the wise one
3 & 4. Knowledge and memory, two factors that work off one another
5. The everyman, loyalty
6. That little part that most people can't understand, deeper than deep
7. The female and the warrior (the fact that both of these aspects were conjoined after coming from a male scientist...the other half that was never expressed, perhaps)
8. The bruiser, the slow wit, the simple one
9. Curiousity, new ideas
Every time they showed a statue or a painting or that book (what was the name on the book talking about the soul I can't remember aaaaaaaa) I wanted to pause it and either screencap or take notes. I have never wanted to sit down and absolutely rip a movie apart the way I did this movie. I want a copy so I can sit down and analyze it for real.
About the only symbolism I didn't appreciate was placing the coin over 2's eyes before floating him down the river. I don't need to get smacked with the symbolism stick, thank you.
*puff puff pant*
And for those of you who want an actual review:
I had fun. I really did have a lot of fun during this movie. There were points in the story where I felt I'd missed some crucial dialogue or character development that never actually happened (see: 9 growing a personality, why do we care about 2, how did they make it to the tunnel that fast), but once the story got going it worked alright. It was definitely on the stereotypical side, and I completely called a good deal of the plot (to the point where I've decided "my foreshadowing sense is tingling" needs to be an icon of some sort), but I did enjoy it. Definitely worth seeing.
...I don't have a lot to say about story because, like I said, story brain shut off and analysis brain kicked right in. I will say I think the robot was the least thought out part of this movie and the random SOUL MAGIC OMG twist just made me go buh? because up until then I'd definitely bought the steampunk/stitchpunk aspect of things, and random soul whatever just made me stop and stare for a bit. Definitely jarring.
And that snake robot? Nightmares forever.
...I'm sure I'll write more about my life at some point, as soon as I can back my brain out of analysis mode and into normal living mode. Uh-huh. 8D
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I think 9 sounds like fun. I've been hearing 'predictable' a lot, but definitely not enough to put me off from seeing it. More people have like it than not to boot.
Oh yeah and I forgot to add that most of this sounds more like stuff with Campbell since he does expand a lot on Jungian Archetypes, which is why I'm asking ;; You just mean the roles of the Wise Man, Trickster, etc, right?
EDIT THE LAST: I'm curious about the ill omens idea since it doesn't always reflect in the same way. It tends to vary between black cats and white cats within cultures (and even then, cats or other animals), and depending of what kind of black bird it is, can indicate wisdom (although that's a rarer part of some mythologies).
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Mostly the archetypal numbers. There's a reason I put "fractured Jungian" in the cut text - I know Jung influences a lot of my interp, but it comes from pretty much everywhere. |D The list of soul fragments was just me trying to figure what doll could possibly represent what aspect of the soul. This isn't exactly the most coherent I've ever been in an LJ entry. XD
I know the ill omens aren't always the same, but keeping in mind this is a Tim Burton movie, I'm more than expecting him to play off common stereotype and interpretation - black cat crossing your path and "nevermore." Plus, the animals in question were robots trying to kill the main characters, so. |D
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Are the numbers relatively common? I haven't had a chance to study Jung in detail ( I've missed out on a lot of aspects due to that) so any parts of his works that detail the use of numbers with the archetypes that you can think of would be helpful for me in terms of learning about him. That was the part I was most confused on since I know certain theologies put more thought into number theory and I didn't realize he had as well.
The rest is pretty generalized, although it obviously sounds Jungian in basis. I think it's interesting that it's spawned this much referencing, but aside from the characters possibly representing aspects of the soul I'm not sure what else could actually be seen as subtle attempts at symbolism. There's a Mentor and other archetypes in every movie if you look hard enough. Naturally, this is all just speculation; I don't actually know anything since I haven't seen the movie yet.
That's why I asked for clarification. I actually haven't seen the movie, so I wouldn't know the details involving the robots. I just know they're in there.
OH YEAH and since I saw the other comment down there, I think the viewer isn't supposed to be paying attention to the fact that the coin is laid so much as the characters thought to do it. Where would they have known to do that? Would it have just felt right? Why did they gain such respect for their fellow being's body instead of doing the sensible thing and destroying it like you asked?
Now that sounds like collective unconscious/ghost in the shell ideas to me. Of course, I don't know the layout of the scene, so that's just me with brain-fry.
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And seriously go see the movie it is a good watch :3
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If someone else who wants to see it takes me I totally will. /would need to mooch
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It wasn't so much symbolism as obvious reference. I'd been digging for meaning for most of the movie, so the obvious THWACK gave me mental whiplash. (Plus, since they now know the bodies can be used against them like that, I still maintain they should've destroyed the body. IDK.)
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Anyway.
I was disappointed by the way it ended. If their souls were all trapped in the thing and then released, wouldn't they have been able to bring them back by reaffixing their souls to the proper bodies? It just seemed like a waste, to me. I mean, maybe bringing them back would've cheapened their deaths or w/e, but I think their deaths were all pretty cheap in the first place (done only as an attempt to emotionally sucker-punch the viewer).
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See, I was thinking that too, and I'm kind of glad they didn't for two reasons:
1) Necromancy in any form is scary, kids!
2) All the original bodies had been destroyed. 1 was crushed under giant falling robot, 2 was horribly violated and floated downstream, I don't even remember what happened to 5, 6 fell down a ravine, and 8 probably burned in the factory inferno. Restoring souls probably would not have been physically possible. |D
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1 to protect us...
2 to inspire us...
3 to define us...
4 to teach us...
5 to guide us...
6 to lead us...
7 to defend us...
8 to guard us...
9 to save us.
:)
I enjoyed your analysis muchly, esp of the big sticks. And 1 definitely shrieked "CULT LEADER!!!1!ONE!" to me, too. Heh. Also, scary evil black bird made me think of Myfanwy of the Torchwood Hub. Myfanwy gone EVIL. And metal. >.> And I thought the library was beautiful, visual-wise.
Yay, good movies.
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Icon, you say?